I really enjoy talking to Josh about music. We don't understand each others' tastes sometimes but we can usually have pretty intense discussions. After his show the other night we had one such discussion that began because of his band's complete lack of respect for the trailblazing and quintessential sounds of At the Drive-In and the search for a reasonable definition of post-hardcore.
I'm still completely dumbfounded that his bandmates give The Used any credit for anything that isn't managing to use chains in a song (See: That John Lennon song they covered) and being to blame for all the mall punks. Meanwhile, they have the nerve to say that At the Drive-In sucks. I understand that I'm a little too obsessed with music history and stuff and I understand that one of the original points of hardcore was to forget all the music that came before and create something new but not for nothing all these post-hardcore bands sound kind of samey. So I don't think they should act above a band that really paved the way for them.
I got a little off track there. Josh ended up talking about how he doesn't think he could ever have a meaningful relationship with a girl that doesn't appreciate Saves the day the same way he does. I'm glad that I have enough people in my life that I share music and ideas with that that isn't a specific criteria for a life partner for me. But I know EXACTLY where he's coming from. What's the point of spending your time with someone that doesn't absolutely love certain things the same way you do? Sure, opposites attract but is attraction enough?
I always get bummed out when someone doesn't like a song or band I recommend to them. Unfortunately, we can't force everyone we meet to see through the green glasses of our own Emerald City. But if you can't come with me to see Japanther and have fun or you can't listen to the Weakerthans' Left and Leaving without it breaking your heart or you refuse to understand why a band like At the Drive-In works me up into a frenzy of air guitar moves, jumping off shit and drooling all over myself because my mind is just completely blown each and every time, then I don't know why we even speak to each other. The things I love all have one thing in common: they are mostly impossible to explain to everyone I meet and at the same time I cannot stop talking about them.
My favorite feeling in the world is someone saying to me "Hey man, I checked out X Band and I love Y Song. Thank you so much. I get it now." Usually it's not in those exact words but you get it.
There is a flip side though. I hate letting people I'm the biggest fans of in on my little secret. Which in and of itself is a ridiculous sentiment to harbor but you know, certain things are ours. Certain things we consider a part of us. Why would I give someone I don't like an arm or a kidney?
That's preposterous but everyone is like that about something.
Time to sleep. School might not be canceled tomorrow.
Posts
March 13, 2016 at 9pm EST
7 years ago
10 comments:
Let's be serious for a minute though. At The Drive-In deserves barely more than a passing mention in any discussion of Post-hardcore. It seems like ATDI is a fairly arbitrary place to stop if you're in the business of faulting people for their irreverence for history. Their first EP wasn't even until 94, when actually important bands like Drive Like Jehu, Husker Du, Rites of Spring and Nation of Ulysses were already dead and gone. ATDI was, at best, a largely failed attempt at a pop, digestible defibrillation of a genre that was hobbled by the mid 90s. Even in their heyday they were overshadowed in a major way by other actually important bands who were doing legitimately sonically interesting things (the top of that list being Fugazi). ATDI is one of those bands that people who don't really understand or know the history of a genre seize on to use as a seal of intelligence to show to people who understand a genre even less than they do. They weren't revolutionary. They weren't any type of archetype or paradigm. They were distinctly average, if we're being generous.
While I will not dispute the fact that Drive Like Jehu, Husker Du, Fugazi and the like do claim a place in post-hardcore history as more genre defining and influential, I do strongly disagree with your assessment of ATDI. Yes, they were largely average but Relationship of Command is a hell of an album. At last Iggy Pop thinks so. (Although maybe his seal of approval isn't that relevant as the quality of the music he produces has been on quite the downturn.)
My point is that the term "post hardcore" doesn't refer to the Fugazis and the Rites of Springs that you're talking about. I think that ATDI can represent the best of a second wave of post-hardcore. Maybe I wasn't that clear in the actual post. And in fact, your comment has put me in my place.
Okay. Let's break it down a bit. Even if we grant this type of magical wall of separation between first and second wave post-hardcore that immunizes ATDI from perfectly relevant comparisons to, say, Husker Du or Rites of Spring, it still doesn't protect them from the Fugazi comparison (and arguably a couple others), as Fugazi was still putting out albums even during ATDI's prime that trounce Relationship of Command most heinously in literally every aspect. The popularity of that album is explainable in other ways also. Take a minute to look at what was going on in popular rock music in the mid to late 90s into the 00s. The most prevalent forms of rock at the time were Nu/Rap metal (e.g. KoRn, Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, P.O.D. Whatever else you can think of) and some really crippled remnants of grunge. Relationship of Command represented a familiar face (Ross Robinson, who had done work with many of the aforementioned Nu-metal bands) in the production booth, with fresh faced, afro-headed, energetic pseudopunks behind the instruments who were able to be sold effectively as a product just like anything else. A similar phenomena had already occurred in 99 with Rage Against the Machine and “The Battle of Los Angeles”, minus the big name producer and afros. RoC was a break from the shit, that's for sure, but if we're really putting it in perspective, and not just looking at one or two years on either end of it's release, it falls miles short of even the lower end of serious albums of the genre, which (aside from a few luminaries) is on the lower end of the genre food chain as far as overall quality of the music produced from it overall. So when we're talking like ALL TIME or even the last decade, ATDI and RoC aren't even in the picture.
I don't understand how it's not a "serious album" in the genre. The album was pretty well received by critics and has reached a kind of cult status among listeners. Yes their choice to use Ross Robinson was to make a more mainstream album. Bands do that all the time. Do I think that anything else that ATDI has released is really great? No. Do I think that they would've put something better than RoC out if they didn't break up? Nope. Do I think that a band realized their potential for an album and put out something excellent? Yes. I understand your arguments but this is slowly devolving into an argument about personal preference. Unfortunately, there is nothing left to discuss at that point. I'm gonna keep waving my ATDI/ RoC flag high.
Fugazi is amazing though. There is no denying that they were making much more challenging music. For the current breed of post-hardcore bands though, Fugazi isn't something they want to be. So hopefully ATDI is something they at least strive for.
Neither critical consensus nor cult status do a decent album make. Especially when said cult status is mainly among barely pubescent teenagers and people blinded by nostalgia. I mean, Plan 9 From Outer Space (generally considered the worst film of all time) has a vast cult following, and like..."Americana" (the offspring album) was "pretty well received by critics". So really those are both pretty weak arguments for the quality of anything. And I wasn't criticizing their choice of Robinson, but it was one of the major reasons that it was easier for mainstreamers to accept the album (& overlook it's manifold weaknesses). And you could be totally right about them fulfilling their potential, I'm just saying that their potential wasn't very deep in the first place. And you're also right that most post hardcore bands aren't striving for a Fugazi level of quality, but the question we should be asking is, "Why not?" If you're admitting that Fugazi and all these other bands are better and more challenging than ATDI, why would we settle for people setting the bar just at ATDI? That doesn't make any sense. And even if, for whatever reason, we do do that, do you really think that people are looking at ATDI as the paradigm for post hardcore? It seems like most PH bands of today have pretty actively rejected ATDI's sound (see your original post). I think that the majority of the people still championing ATDI are those who are just really nostalgic for simpler times when they were occupied with social upheaval via their bedroom in their parent's suburban home.
And I completely disagree with your idea that just because people have different preferences means there is simply no conversation to be had. If that's the case, all music critics should quit, all music magazines should be shut down and everyone should just keep everything they think to themselves because there is no discussion to have between anybody ever. Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it can't be argued for and against.
I only mean that we have nothing left to discuss because this can (and probably will) just go on forever and that in a neverending conversation there is very little chance that either of us gives.
I also didn't necessarily mean that today's post-hardcore bands reject ATDI's sound. I meant that they sound closer to ATDI than they are willing to admit and I believe that they should credit where credit is due.
I want to know why more bands don't want to be Fugazi. And yes I am nostalgic for simpler times when I was occupied with social upheaval via my bedroom in my parent's house. Nostalgia and music are what good memories are made of. In fact, while I realize Fugazi is a superior band, I don't really care. I mean I care in a historical sense. But ATDI was my soundtrack. The same way countless other bands like The Promise Ring and Desaparecidos were. If I had to choose between "Repeater" and RoC, it's RoC every time.
I'm sorry "One Armed Scissor" never had you jumping off your bed or trying to dance like Omar Rodriguez-Lopez.
I am going to keep that quote as a personal reminder of everything that is wrong with music (and especially with musical criticism) in the world today. "In fact, while I realize Fugazi is a superior band, I don't really care." Brilliant. You realize that this is the equivalent of a murderer saying "I know killing is wrong, but I don't care." It's really completely incomprehensible. The bottom line is, as with murder, if you really understood what you were saying, in this case that Fugazi is better than ATDI, then you WOULD care, just like the murderer, fully understanding that murder is really wrong, would, upon reaching that understanding, not kill people.
And. Nostalgia is meaningless. I mean it's fine to sit around and reminisce, but as a justification for liking one band over another in a serious conversation about music and merit, it's a total non sequitur.
I'm sorry your childhood was soundtracked by shitty music.
Dude, you're ignoring the very mext sentence I wrote. What are you trying to prove here?
I like ATDI. Yes, I am extremely hyperbolic when talking about things I like. Yes I know that Fugazi is a better band, a truer example of pure post-hardcore and a testament to musical reinvention and ingenuity.
Did I listen to Fugazi in high school? No. As such I hold ATDI in a different regard.
I agree with you. Nostalgia has no place in a serious conversation about music. But fuck man, if music isn't conjuring up some sort of emotion in you, then why do you even bother listening? And I mean all music. Not "good" music or "bad" music.
I honestly have no idea where I'm going with this. But I don't know what you're getting at either. What are you trying to prove here?
Are you trying to say that like a murderer who stops killing people, I should just realize that Fugazi is better and thus listen to them more? I did admit that Fugazi is better already. What else do you want from me?
I was by no means ignoring the mext sentence you wrote. In fact I considered the mext sentence carefully and found the mext sentence to be meaningless. So you care in a non-substantive, undefined, “historical” sense, but not when it comes to actually listening to music? That's like saying “I believe that fillet mignon is better than a McDonald's cheeseburger in every way, but I will still pick a McDonald's cheeseburger over fillet mignon.” It doesn't make sense.
And who said anything about music not conjuring up emotions in me? I just happen to believe that good music will conjure up said emotion more powerfully than bad music. So maybe we can count the conjuring of emotion in some way when we're talking about the merits of one band over another, but when it is unaccompanied as far as substantive characteristics that we consider when we're talking about good and bad music (or accompanied by a limited number of them in small portions) then it doesn't really matter. It's not like the emotionally affective aspects of music trump everything else. Something could be emotionally affective as fuck, but if it's otherwise kind of derivative, uncreative, not really artistically sound or whatever else, it's kind of worthless overall. And furthermore I would argue that nostalgia is a weak type of emotional response. If something is only able to conjure emotion by appealing to (often romanticized) notions or feelings of the past, then I don't think it's very emotive at all. Really, seriously good music can get a rise out of someone based solely on it's own merits. That is, really good music can generate emotion sort of “in a vacuum”, without appeal to ones personal history or whatever else. One doesn't have to have a history or training in classical music or have memories of her parents playing a particular Chopin Étude to be deeply emotionally affected by it. I think the same (or similar) can be said of the highest levels of musical achievement in any genre. So in this case, the ability to generate emotion in the listener is symptomatic of greatness. It is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. So if something isn't generating emotion, it's probably no good, but generating emotion alone, by any means, is not enough to make something great.
What am I trying to prove? I don't know. Nothing? I do just enjoy arguing. Maybe I'm trying to prove that you don't really know what you're talking about. I don't know. I don't think motives in colloquial discourse are usually something people think about. At least not the people taking part in the discussion. I guess, on some level, yes I am saying that you should renounce your affinity for At The Drive-In and listen to Fugazi more. In a perfect world, that would be the goal. Obviously I don't expect that in reality, but that won't stop me from arguing about it.
You are correct. Truly great music can generate emotion "in a vacuum." But if music can generate emotion then I think that it is worth listening to. Unfortunately different people are affected by different things and while we can say "This is good and this is bad" that is only in hopes that those who read music criticism will give things that are good a chance and continue to further that artist's work etc.
Maybe nostalgia is a weak emotional response but it's not something anyone can help and sometimes it takes years to become removed enough from something to truly judge something on it's artistic merit alone and try to look at it objectively. Sometimes you like things just because of how they make you feel, nostalgic or otherwise, and that has to be worth something.
You definitely like arguing a lot more than I do. But I bring it upon myself for having a forum on the internet for people to refute my ideas. Thanks for sticking with this for so long.
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